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I thought there was seperation of church and state

By Kagemon - Posted on 14 November 2008

It seems I could be wrong however.


Sorry for such a short post however its 06:30 hours and I haven't had sleep yet today.

 I also apologize if this is in the wrong forum.  Its political on one hand and not on the other.

I think he should lose his tax exempt status.

I'm sure they already know about this... I hope they do...

I emailed this article to Suzi and Lesley yesterday.  I don't understand how people can preach this crap from the pulpit and get away with it.  This priest needs to be disciplined. Period. Lose his church's tax exempt status. Period.

This EXACT kind of garbage is such a pet peeve of mine for so many different reasons.  It is taking all of the self control that I have to not just "go off" on this topic....  

"I SO voted for Barack Obama!  10/25/08"

Believe me this morning with lack of sleep I typed out 3 or 4 paragraphs of rant on this article.  I covered seperation of church and state, tax exemption, the "pro-abortion" stuff as well as a number of other things that broke from the rant.

 However I put it up to sleep deprivation and cleared it all.

 I didn't want to offend anyone and being as I was; I was not sure it would have or not.

Kage: It wouldn't have offended me.  In fact, I'd like to read more of your P.O.V.

There is a local religous blog today that I (and many other Houstonians) are trying to refute.  One of the blogger's arguments is that separation of church and state is simply an idea from Jefferson after the country was founded.  He argues that it's not in the Constitution --which is factually correct-- but he's using that as reason to support theology's intrusion into politics.  I could use all the ammo I can muster. 


I can say this on that matter.  If they said that about the amendments then ever amendment would need to be taken out.

The constitution itself was about the governing side of the USA the amendments are about the people's rights.

If they want to go as far as that, then the churches should not use the 1st amendment to get tax exemption.

I seem to recall in biblical verse, Jesus said "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." This sounds to me like governmantal policy is secular (hopefully moral). This was said in regard to citizens paying taxes to the Roman authorities.

It says in Romans and other epistles that government should be respected, because God establishes it over us. I say that attempting to codify one's worldview into the government is both tantamount to a coup d'etat and one of the ultimate displays of disrespect of the government. Yes, many viewpoints can be contributed to the government, but giving one viewpoint, particularly a religious one, the force of law is oppressive and unnecessary.


And there's no sense crying over every mistake
You just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake.

This is exactly why I have gotten away from the church. I still believe in God, but I can not sit in a church feeling like I'm being judged by someone who is not God.


Wow, I thought the Catholic chruch had mostly refrained from these sorts of actions. More and more so that appears not to be the case. I definitely agree that there should be a concentrated effort to see these chruch's lose their tax exempt status.

Just a curiosity, where in the Bible does it say that life begins at conception anyway?

This Cathoiic is ashamed. My dear friend, who is a Catholic priest, proudly voted for Obama for a variety of social (poverty, etc.) & anti-war reasons. Will he not be allowed to give communion let alone take communion? Why does this priest not mention that voting for McCain would support war (killing of innocent lives) or that such a vote would support the death penalty (my church tells us all life is sacred)? Under his logic, any person that voted on Nov. 4th should not get communion. They might as well skip that part of the mass.

As a Catholic also, I am not only ashamed but repulsed as well at this priest's logic (or lack of it). Of course, many of his superiors (bishops, archbishops, and cardinals) are apparently right in line with his archaic way of thinking. In my opinion. that is one of the reasons the Catholic "brand" is now and has been for many years losing support among many life-long adherents.

Fortunately, 46% of Catholics ignored the drivel being promulgated by the official church hierarchy, and voted their conscience instead of the reactionary dogma. Good for them, and us!


Sounds like someone still thinks it's 1490.

Let's hope his decree doesn't affect too many Catholics in how they view themselves and their right to vote for whomever they choose. It's almost as if some religious leaders are stuck in the middle ages. They ignore studies and proof that education and access to sex education/contraception reduce the abortion rate more effectively than beating people over the head with fire and brimstone.

Guilt can only go so far before people simply say that they've had enough. Then where will they go and what sort of spiritual scars will they have to carry with them? 

No, after Obama won and they found out 54% of Catholic voters had voted for him, the US bishops had a meeting.  You would have thought they would have changed their position slightly and maybe even reevaluated their stance.  But, no, of course not.  They reiterated that they had to do everything to convince the Obama administration that abortion is an evil and to "promote abortion" is to attack the Catholic Church.   They decided to continue this divisive rhetoric, basically. 

This is one of the many reasons why I consider myself a non-practicing Catholic.  Instead of being servants of their parishioners and the needy, they are political power grabbers.  

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I feel it is inevitably problematic when you have a group of men who are not supposed to engage in sexual relations at all dictating sexual policy to their parishioners and meddling into such issues in public policy.  It is dysfunctional at best.  I will never go back to the Catholic Church, ever.

The US Bishops should hang out with the leaders of the GOP. They both seem to be totally missing the point. They are backwards thinking and stubborn in their views. The Catholic Church is missing an opportunity to strengthen and be more inclusive, just as the GOP is missing the opportunity. It's really sad. Some of my the priests at my parish are very old school but we do have some younger, more open minded priests to balance it out. The good friend I talked about earlier who is a priest gives me the impression that there are two camps of Catholic priests/leaders who are at odds. Many of the older priests will retire soon so maybe there is hope.

The Catholic church has that in common with my church, PCUSA. There is a split between 'old' and 'new' thinking. 

It's so important right now to rethink our stances. Most churches are wondering why younger people aren't joining and staying yet can't connect the dots to see that the spirituality of America is changing.

I think many younger people are focusing on the love and acceptance of all of God's people, and not just the 'laws' of a certain faith. Perhaps this is a point where we should listen to the younger people as leaders instead of moldable putty. 


I am ashamed to be a catholic right now.
Me too! You know, I sing in my choir and all, but that is because I love the music. I have a hard time dealing with the hard liners in the church. Unfortunately, John Paul II made darn sure he appointed hard liners as cardinals. I don't know how long it will be before that ever comes around to be moderate again - maybe not in my lifetime!

The title should be



This is why we propose the Palin Amendment : something that specifically spells out the meaning of the seperation of church and state, so those who challenge it can stop.  But it'll never happen.

I just saw this while reading Kos and had a good Heck Yea reaction.  

Monsignor Martin Laughlin, administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, responded to Father Newman's statement with a written repudiation (i.e. Smackdown).


CHARLESTON, S.C. (November 14, 2008) - This past week, the Catholic Church’s clear,  moral teaching on the evil of abortion has been pulled into the partisan political arena.  The  recent comments of Father Jay Scott Newman, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Church in  Greenville, S.C., have diverted the focus from the Church’s clear position against abortion.  

  As  Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, let me state with clarity that Father Newman’s  statements do not adequately reflect the Catholic Church’s teachings.  Any comments or  statements to the contrary are repudiated.

   The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Man has the right to act in conscience and in  freedom so as personally to make moral decisions."  The Catechism goes on to state:  "In the  formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path; we must assimilate it in faith  and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s  Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others  and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church."

   Christ gives us freedom to explore our own conscience and to make our own decisions while  adhering to the law of God and the teachings of the faith.  Therefore, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to  confession before receiving Communion.

    The pulpit is reserved for the Word of God.  Sometimes God’s truth, as is the Church’s teaching  on abortion, is unpopular.  All Catholics must be aware of and follow the teachings of the  Church.  

We should all come together to support the President-elect and all elected officials with a view  to influencing policy in favor of the protection of the unborn child. Let us pray for them and ask  God to guide them as they take the mantle of leadership on January 20, 2009.    I ask also for your continued prayers for me and for the Diocese of Charleston. 


Yes America Can!  Yes America Did!


Simple answer to this post : you thought wrong.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  Although personally I like the last post from Monsignor Martin Laughlin, administrator of the Diocese of Charleston.  Right wingers hate it but God has given us free will.  We don't have to blindly follow other humans.

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